Speying

[ILoveKettleChips]

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OK, anyone who doesn't know my views (or absence of them!) on this issue has been living with their head in a bucket of custard for the last 18 months, so I won't go into them here, BUT on the pain/anthropomorphism subject ....

Please, correct me if I am wrong Dawn, but I am under the impression that the standard approach for hysterectomy operations in humans is an incision across the abdomen so that the scar can be hidden by trousers?

In bitches the incision is made in the midline (down the centre of the abdomen, running parallel to the spine). This means that rather than incising the actual muscle, the vet separates the muscles by opening the linea alba, a strip of fibrous connective tissue with a poor nerve and blood supply. This takes longer to heal than an incision into the actual muscles but is much less painful while healing. Once the initial bruising has subsided (1-2 days) the dog is usually behaving normally, eating well and keen to interact with others. The actual muscles remain undamaged, along with their associated nerve fibres.

I'm not saying that the operation is more or less painful for dogs cf humans, I am just saying that I don't think they can be compared. But I also have a theory that vets perform the op much more frequently than human surgeons do, so it might well be quicker and involve less tissue damage and swelling for dogs!

 

[Strike Whippets]

I really wish I hadn't just read through this thread (hope your feeling better though Dawn :flowers: ) ........Miya's being speyed next Friday for medical reasons, as she has Polycythemia Vera, and her seasons disrupt her bloods .......she has also started having phantoms and last time she had to have AB's due to a high temp and fluid in the womb .........My Dob x has to go in with her just in case she needs a blood transfussion during the op (which is a fare possibility) .......Either way having or not having her speyed is life threatening for her ..........All this aside though, IMHO its up to each and every owner as to wether they spey/neuter THEIR dog or not ...........Everyone has their dog's best interests at heart ..........It never occured to me to ask the owners of my last litter if they were going to have them done......I was just glad that the pup's had found such good homes ........What really turns me is people who have a pedigree pup, who then later breed from her not knowing lines, breeding etc ........Then they don't even keep a pup ......To me that would be more mortifying than finding one of my owners had speyed one of my pup's ........but as I said .....this is JMHO

 

[dessie]

This is always an interesting topic.  I'd be really interested in what people would do in a couple of hypothetical situations. Here goes
1.  A family approach you looking for a puupy or young bitch.  They are experienced owners of Whippets and currently have a rescue dog , (neutered before they got him).  He is about 6 and because of his past history is not very good with dogs though fine with bitches.  Husband is a teacher and so has long holidays. Wife is at home all day. two great kids, 8 and 10.  They own a caravan and go away every holiday as they enjoy walking.  They would like to have the bitch spayed at an appropate age as they feel if she is in season when they are away the bitch would not be able to come out with them and enjoy the freedom she loves. It would mean either leaving her in kennels or not going away.  Would you let them have a bitch from you?

2.  You keep dogs and bitches indoors. At season time the bitch is kept apart from the dogs, she has had a litter and is now 6 and has finished her show career.  She is very attatched to you and hates being shut up seperatley when she has a season.  Would you have her spayed?

Like I said these are just hypothetical situations, I'm just curious as to what you would decide

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1. No. I will not sell a bitch to be spayed just for their convenience, however good a home it may seem.

2. No. You must think about these sort of things when you plan to keep dogs and bitches. All my Whippets are indoors and they are separated when the bitches are in season but not 'locked away' somewhere away from their normal surroundings. If there is only one bitch in season, another one will constantly keep her company.

I would say here that I agree (OMG not again!!! (w00t) ) with Dawn and that is, if a bitch requires surgery for the good of her health then fine but NOT just for the convenience of the owner or for prophylactic (allegedly) reasons.

If I did have an accidental mating and puppies resulted, they would be treated in entirely the same manner as planned puppies ............. or put in a bucket.

[SIZE=14pt]NO ONLY JOKING[/SIZE]

Well, unless they were fawn.

And why is it that Dawn and I are insane for standing by what we believe. We may well be insane but we are allowed an opinion as well as those who 'do rescue'.

And if rescue are finding such good homes for their dogs, why do they all need to be neutered?????

 

[saraquele]

This is always an interesting topic.  I'd be really interested in what people would do in a couple of hypothetical situations. Here goes
1.  A family approach you looking for a puupy or young bitch.  They are experienced owners of Whippets and currently have a rescue dog , (neutered before they got him).  He is about 6 and because of his past history is not very good with dogs though fine with bitches.  Husband is a teacher and so has long holidays. Wife is at home all day. two great kids, 8 and 10.  They own a caravan and go away every holiday as they enjoy walking.  They would like to have the bitch spayed at an appropate age as they feel if she is in season when they are away the bitch would not be able to come out with them and enjoy the freedom she loves. It would mean either leaving her in kennels or not going away.  Would you let them have a bitch from you?

2.  You keep dogs and bitches indoors. At season time the bitch is kept apart from the dogs, she has had a litter and is now 6 and has finished her show career.  She is very attatched to you and hates being shut up seperatley when she has a season.  Would you have her spayed?

Like I said these are just hypothetical situations, I'm just curious as to what you would decide

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1. No. I will not sell a bitch to be spayed just for their convenience, however good a home it may seem.

2. No. You must think about these sort of things when you plan to keep dogs and bitches. All my Whippets are indoors and they are separated when the bitches are in season but not 'locked away' somewhere away from their normal surroundings. If there is only one bitch in season, another one will constantly keep her company.

I would say here that I agree (OMG not again!!! (w00t) ) with Dawn and that is, if a bitch requires surgery for the good of her health then fine but NOT just for the convenience of the owner or for prophylactic (allegedly) reasons.

If I did have an accidental mating and puppies resulted, they would be treated in entirely the same manner as planned puppies ............. or put in a bucket.

[SIZE=14pt]NO ONLY JOKING[/SIZE]

Well, unless they were fawn.

And why is it that Dawn and I are insane for standing by what we believe. We may well be insane but we are allowed an opinion as well as those who 'do rescue'.

And if rescue are finding such good homes for their dogs, why do they all need to be neutered?????

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i can see the reasons etc behind your views , and i understand and respect them .

however :b are you totally against speying for any other reason than medical ?

i agree that any dog in a responsible home should not need to be speyed but is it so wrong to spey them if they are only going to be a family pet ?

after all if you have all the hormones etc and to be told you could never have sex :b is that fair too ???

I HASTEN TO ADD I DO NOT JUDGE ANYONE ON THEIR OPINION , NOR DO I CRITISE THEM , IT IS JUST THAT , THEIR OPINION :b IM JUST INTRESTED IN WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE SO AGAINST IT :blink:

 

[dawn]

i agree that any dog in a responsible home should not need to be speyed but is it so wrong to spey them if they are only going to be a family pet ?

but why would you want to put them through major surgery if it wasn't necessary??So its just a family pet well mine are all first and formost family pets two of whom we have decided NOT to have a litter from but I wouldnt dream of having them speyed.

As for the sex part what they dont experience they dont miss!

Dessie this is getting quite a regular thing u and me agreeing (w00t) and its only January:-"

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

[SIZE=14pt]quote As for the sex part what they dont experience they dont miss![/SIZE]

how do you know?

 

[dawn]

I really wish I hadn't just read through this thread (hope your feeling better though Dawn :flowers: ) ........Miya's being speyed next Friday for medical reasons, as she has Polycythemia Vera, and her seasons disrupt her bloods .......she has also started having phantoms and last time she had to have AB's due to a high temp and fluid in the womb .........My Dob x has to go in with her just in case she needs a blood transfussion during the op (which is a fare possibility)  .......Either way having or not having her speyed is life threatening for her    ..........All this aside though, IMHO its up to each and every owner as to wether they spey/neuter THEIR dog or not ...........Everyone has their dog's best interests at heart ..........It never occured to me to ask the owners of my last litter if they were going to have them done......I was just glad that the pup's had found such good homes ........What really turns me is people who have a pedigree pup, who then later breed from her not knowing lines, breeding etc ........Then they don't even keep a pup  ......To me that would be more mortifying than finding one of my owners had speyed one of my pup's  ........but as I said .....this is JMHO 

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Good luck with Miya Hannah :luck:

If its any consolation I would have done exactly the same thing if it was one of mine.

 

[dawn]

[SIZE=14pt]quote As for the sex part what they dont experience they dont miss![/SIZE]
how do you know?

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Ok then how many times in a life time would any bitch have sex???

if they are not been bred from the answer is never. Even a brood bitch would only have sex probabley a max of 6 times which would be two matings per litter.

They are not at it every night like some humans!!!

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

If you look at wolves...they do not mate for pleasure...they mate for the pure and simple reason to produce pups. Seeing as dogs are descendents of wolves you can pretty much judge for yourself.

 

[dessie]

[SIZE=14pt]quote As for the sex part what they dont experience they dont miss![/SIZE]
how do you know?

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Oh please! Anthropomorphising again

 

[mazza]

I had Annie speyed, and there was no medical reason to get it done, so you could say I had her done for convenience, that is convenience for myself and convenience for Annie. You have a dog to fit in with your life, not the other way around.

Any operation that involves an anaesthetic has risks obviously.

You cannot compare a dog spey to a womans hysterectomy.

Putting her through this awful ordeal.

Annie was sore for the first day after her op and that’s all in fact within a few days she was back to her old self. I do not think I have put her through a terrible operation. She received excellent care throughout.

I think her life will actually be better because I had her speyed. She will not have the moody seasons, or phantom pregnancies, she will not be pestered by males, she will not have to be separated from Alf for the duration of it, which would have caused a tremendous amount of anxiety for both dogs. She will and does enjoy her life immensely as before but without the problems of seasons.

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

It is a scientific fact that the only animals who have non reproductive sex for pleausre are Banobos (Chimpanzees) humans and dolphins. There has been no mention that dogs have sex for pleasure purposes.

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

If you look at wolves...they do not mate for pleasure...they mate for the pure and simple reason to produce pups.  Seeing as dogs are descendents of wolves you can pretty much judge for yourself.

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exactly i agree...they would mate every season until they die....for a pet owner with an unspayed bitch that never mates where is the similarity?

 

[dessie]

i agree that any dog in a responsible home should not need to be speyed but is it so wrong to spey them if they are only going to be a family pet ?

but why would you want to put them through major surgery if it wasn't necessary??
Quite so, my point exactly!

So its just a family pet well mine are all first and formost family pets two of whom we have decided NOT to have a litter from but I wouldnt dream of having them speyed.

Mine are pets first and foremost also, not breeding machines. I would not force a bitch to be mated either, hence why little old Sophie remained a professional virgin!!

Dessie this is getting quite a regular thing u and me agreeing (w00t) and its only January:-"

I know (w00t) but mine still go out nice and snug in their lovely warm coats!! LOL! :thumbsup:

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[~whitecross whippets~]

It is a scientific fact that the only animals who have non reproductive sex for pleausre are Banobos (Chimpanzees) humans and dolphins.  There has been no mention that dogs have sex for pleasure purposes.

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who said they did have sex for pleasure???...of course they dont.....but dogs do develop behavioral problems where the answer lies in them being neutered!

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

i have cared for HUNDREDS of dogs who have been spayed and i know for a FACT they recover within a couple of days.....but advice against spaying seems to be being given by people who have never even spayed their pets yet they know the terrible trauma it causes!

 

[dawn]

Any operation that involves an anaesthetic has risks obviously.You cannot compare a dog spey to a womans hysterectomy.

Putting her through this awful ordeal.

Annie was sore for the first day after her op and that’s all in fact within a few days she was back to her old self. I do not think I have put her through a terrible operation. She received excellent care throughout

I have recieved excellent care but given the choice I wouldn't have had it done.

Which ever way you look at it a bitch being speyed is still having the same operation as a hysterectomy. I feel like I could do things but i know I cant because of the damage I will do in the long run. Removing any females reproductive organs IS a major operation and therefore it takes the body a long time to recover.

How do u know she would have had moody seasons and phantom pregancies?

 

[dawn]

but dogs do develop behavioral problems where the answer lies in them being neutered

What utter rubbish!!!!!!

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

Ok...when it comes to behavioural problems there is always another answer rather than having the dog neutered. If you are referring to an aggresive dogs there are some vets out there who will recommend them being neutered however I dont agree with this. I've been training dogs for eleven years and have never told someone who i have been helping to get their dog neutered. If the trainer or owner knows what they are doing and does the research then the problem can be resolved without having to resort to neutering.

I have seen owners who have called me because there dog is out of control and the dog has been neutered already. It is seen in rescue dogs, people take rescue dogs on who have problems, and rescue dogs are neutered. If you have the patience and the time to dedicate to training a problem dog then you can help with the behaviour problems without having to put them through major surgery.

 

[dessie]

If you look at wolves...they do not mate for pleasure...they mate for the pure and simple reason to produce pups.  Seeing as dogs are descendents of wolves you can pretty much judge for yourself.

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exactly i agree...they would mate every season until they die....for a pet owner with an unspayed bitch that never mates where is the similarity?

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But only the alpha male and female in the pack reproduce not the plebs. I am pack leader (and well as insane) in our household so they only mate if I say so. That goes for dogs or bitches.

You only get behavourial problems if you have owners who are clearly not pack leaders and allow the dogs to become dominant. Just because neutering MAY solve the problem, would it not be better not to allow it to happen in the first instance???